The demons in Frieren really bother me. It’s just such a strange choice in this otherwise incredible show to have the villains just be pure evil, cold, calculating, no emotions, mustache twirlers. In a lesser show I probably wouldn’t even notice, it’s pretty standard shonen stuff, but this was so much better, it just sticks out like a sore thumb.
In a few scenes explaining the nature of demons, a direct one to one comparison is made between human concepts of wealth/hierarchy and how demons organize themselves using mana instead of wealth
Unfortunately all of that is ignored by some online leftists who are more interested in the most tortured and delirious interpretation of the setting, to the point where some are convinced the demons are an allusion to marginalized people in the west, despite the fact they’re literally coded as genocidal German aristocrats
to the point where some are convinced the demons are an allusion to marginalized people in the west
One of the work’s most famous narrative arcs is about how the demons’ evil is racially inherited and independent of material circumstances, and even their children are dangerous monsters that can only be exterminated. Is it really so surprising that someone would see that and think of Rassenkampf and “The only good Indian is a dead Indian,” instead of the political project that reformed Puyi?
There’s also this line, which… well, let me put it this way: if I were to read this as an pertaining to any real-world political movement, it definitely wouldn’t be the bourgeoisie.
E: If anything, the logic of Frieren reminds me of the logic of “populist” anti-capitalism, which accurately identifies and rails against the evils of capitalism but externalizes them onto an ontologically evil (generally racial, usually Jews) outsider group.
E2: Come to think of it, the genocide victim protagonist being a blonde-haired, blue-eyed young woman with a German-sounding name is eyebrow-raising as well.
Why am I supposed to see in that the logic of the political project that reformed Puyi
I don’t say this usually, but shit really ain’t that deep bro, despite the whole amoral species thing, the allegory and subtext about the demons is pretty well intact; German aristocrats doing genocide and colonialism, that’s their theme, yeah “it’s in their blood”, sure call that problematic, big whoop
Come back to me when their presentation is orientalized or is harking to racial caricatures from the west, otherwise your argument is standing on sand
Also there’s this, which could have come straight from a white nationalist manifesto.
Aside from the fact the context of the arc blows your accusation out of the water, Frieren isn’t berating Macht for having the audacity to desire coexistence, she’s pointing out his idea of “coexistence” seems to be nothing more than treating others around him as “playthings” and “curiosities” that are thrown away at the slightest inconvenience
So a creature with the goofiest German name, dressed like a noble from a Czarist court, treating those he deems lesser than himself with a colonial mindset, I wonder what the subtext could possibly be
I don’t say this usually, but shit really ain’t that deep bro, despite the whole amoral species thing, the allegory and subtext about the demons is pretty well intact; German aristocrats doing genocide and colonialism, that’s their theme, yeah “it’s in their blood”, sure call that problematic, big whoop
Fascists fucking love this “curtains are just blue bro, don’t look into it, authors don’t actually think about stuff bro, they’re just story machines, don’t look at the themes bro, don’t think about anything and just passively absorb everything” bullshit. Media literacy is important, and it saddens me to see you think like this.
As a professional writer myself, every single theme and idea put into something is put there with intent, unconscious or not. If the show has a literal “nits make lice” scene about a child of the evil enemy it’s because the author wanted to make a point about that exact idea, and in the show, it explicitly shows that the only correct and moral choice is to exterminate them all, because they are literally born evil, and are incapable of changing their nature, despite being intelligent and sapient like people and perfectly capable of descision making and personal choice(but they only ever make choices to deceive and destroy people). Can you not see how this is an extremely problematic theme in a show that is supposed to be about human connection?
Frankly I think it’s ironic you’re accusing me of “Curtians are just blue” type shit when that’s precisely what I think you and all the other “Frieren is racist” leftists are doing, obsessing over in-lore aesthetics and tortured interpretations of presentation while completely missing the subtext and allegorical themes of what the Demons are supposed to represent, which sure as shit isn’t black people, Jews or whatever you all seem to be implying
The allegory of uncaring aristocrats bound by blood to commit genocide and colonialism, may contain problematic elements, but it doesn’t prove your accusation that the series is attempting to normalize racism
Do you know actually know what I’m talking about? Did you actually read what I wrote or are you just looking to get mad because I’m criticising a show you like? If you want to accuse me of overanalysing, fine, but don’t also claim I’m refusing to analyse at the same time, that’s just incoherent.
I’m not saying you can’t like the show, I’m saying it has some problematic elements that actively harm the storytelling. And those some problematic elements have attracted a lot of fascists to the show’s fanbase, because the way the demons are talked about in the show is the exact same way they want people to think about minorities. Is the show itself being racist? No, the demons aren’t a direct stand in for any real world group, but the way they are talked about in the show is exactly how hate groups talk about minorities.
The show literally has a scene that shows us what happens when a demon child is raised by people: The demon will just kill them, because it is their nature to destroy people. They look like humans, but only to fool people into letting their guard down. Not because of some magical mumbo jumbo, but because they literally evolved to be destructive monsters whose only goal is to wipe out humanity. Can you not see how this is literally how actual real world groups like nazis talk about their enemies? Can you not see why fascists would love a show that says “some creatures look human, but aren’t really, they just evolved to look human in order to trick people. Our only solution is to exterminate them all, it’s us or them.”
They aren’t aristocrats, they aren’t in charge of this society, they are apart from it and seeking to destroy it from the outside. If they were in charge and actively trying to destroy or control everyone below them, then yeah, they’d be a pretty clear stand in for a parasitic aristocracy, but the show doesn’t treat them like that, it treats them like vermin. It doesn’t treat them as a stand in for real world oppression, they’re just evil because they are born that way.
You look at their fancy clothes and German names (in a setting where everyone dresses like that and has German names) and that’s where your analysis ends? Can you not see how the exact same rhetoric used by the characters in the show about the villains is literally the exact same rhetoric real world hate groups use to justify their violence?
I suppose Ukraine can’t be full of Nazis, because they have a Jewish president, and the US can’t be racist because they elected Obama, right? After all, we should only ever look at surface level stuff, and if they are literally wearing aristocratic clothing, that means they must be aristocrats and represent them and only them and nothing else, and the fascist part of this show’s fanbase just loves the show for no reason, and it totally isn’t a useful tool for them to normalise toxic ideas about real people, even if that wasn’t the original intent.
I think I’ve half-jokingly said something like this in an earlier Frieren thread, but I’ll say it again, and 100% seriously this time:
Some people on here seem to actively want any manga or anime ever made to have fascist undertones, just so they can justify their belief that all Japanese people are born fascist. Like it’s genetic or some shit. And the fact that this is very clearly a form of racism in itself completely escapes them.
This whole thing is extremely USA coded, let me just remind you that there is an entire world outside your borders.
Or my family lived under Japanese occupation and we had people die in the Bataan Death March, so I’m cautious whenever Japanese media has racist undertones. There hasn’t been an honest effort on Japan’s part to even acknowledge what they did while their government is trying to recreate the same genocidal projects. It’s very similar to how Black or Native American people have problems with settler-colonialist themes featured in westerns and post-apocalyptic media. Capitalist media is going to have capitalist brainworms unless it is explicitly anticapitalist. This doesn’t mean you can’t enjoy something. It’s pointing out the problems as they exist.
But sure. I’m the real racist for pointing out racism in your cartoon slop. Fuck off with this crakkker shit.
The demons in Frieren really bother me. It’s just such a strange choice in this otherwise incredible show to have the villains just be pure evil, cold, calculating, no emotions, mustache twirlers. In a lesser show I probably wouldn’t even notice, it’s pretty standard shonen stuff, but this was so much better, it just sticks out like a sore thumb.
So demons are like capitalists?
In a few scenes explaining the nature of demons, a direct one to one comparison is made between human concepts of wealth/hierarchy and how demons organize themselves using mana instead of wealth
Unfortunately all of that is ignored by some online leftists who are more interested in the most tortured and delirious interpretation of the setting, to the point where some are convinced the demons are an allusion to marginalized people in the west, despite the fact they’re literally coded as genocidal German aristocrats
Literal
vibes
One of the work’s most famous narrative arcs is about how the demons’ evil is racially inherited and independent of material circumstances, and even their children are dangerous monsters that can only be exterminated. Is it really so surprising that someone would see that and think of Rassenkampf and “The only good Indian is a dead Indian,” instead of the political project that reformed Puyi?
There’s also this line, which… well, let me put it this way: if I were to read this as an pertaining to any real-world political movement, it definitely wouldn’t be the bourgeoisie.
E: If anything, the logic of Frieren reminds me of the logic of “populist” anti-capitalism, which accurately identifies and rails against the evils of capitalism but externalizes them onto an ontologically evil (generally racial, usually Jews) outsider group.
E2: Come to think of it, the genocide victim protagonist being a blonde-haired, blue-eyed young woman with a German-sounding name is eyebrow-raising as well.
I don’t say this usually, but shit really ain’t that deep bro, despite the whole amoral species thing, the allegory and subtext about the demons is pretty well intact; German aristocrats doing genocide and colonialism, that’s their theme, yeah “it’s in their blood”, sure call that problematic, big whoop
Come back to me when their presentation is orientalized or is harking to racial caricatures from the west, otherwise your argument is standing on sand
Aside from the fact the context of the arc blows your accusation out of the water, Frieren isn’t berating Macht for having the audacity to desire coexistence, she’s pointing out his idea of “coexistence” seems to be nothing more than treating others around him as “playthings” and “curiosities” that are thrown away at the slightest inconvenience
So a creature with the goofiest German name, dressed like a noble from a Czarist court, treating those he deems lesser than himself with a colonial mindset, I wonder what the subtext could possibly be
Fascists fucking love this “curtains are just blue bro, don’t look into it, authors don’t actually think about stuff bro, they’re just story machines, don’t look at the themes bro, don’t think about anything and just passively absorb everything” bullshit. Media literacy is important, and it saddens me to see you think like this.
As a professional writer myself, every single theme and idea put into something is put there with intent, unconscious or not. If the show has a literal “nits make lice” scene about a child of the evil enemy it’s because the author wanted to make a point about that exact idea, and in the show, it explicitly shows that the only correct and moral choice is to exterminate them all, because they are literally born evil, and are incapable of changing their nature, despite being intelligent and sapient like people and perfectly capable of descision making and personal choice(but they only ever make choices to deceive and destroy people). Can you not see how this is an extremely problematic theme in a show that is supposed to be about human connection?
Frankly I think it’s ironic you’re accusing me of “Curtians are just blue” type shit when that’s precisely what I think you and all the other “Frieren is racist” leftists are doing, obsessing over in-lore aesthetics and tortured interpretations of presentation while completely missing the subtext and allegorical themes of what the Demons are supposed to represent, which sure as shit isn’t black people, Jews or whatever you all seem to be implying
The allegory of uncaring aristocrats bound by blood to commit genocide and colonialism, may contain problematic elements, but it doesn’t prove your accusation that the series is attempting to normalize racism
Do you know actually know what I’m talking about? Did you actually read what I wrote or are you just looking to get mad because I’m criticising a show you like? If you want to accuse me of overanalysing, fine, but don’t also claim I’m refusing to analyse at the same time, that’s just incoherent.
I’m not saying you can’t like the show, I’m saying it has some problematic elements that actively harm the storytelling. And those some problematic elements have attracted a lot of fascists to the show’s fanbase, because the way the demons are talked about in the show is the exact same way they want people to think about minorities. Is the show itself being racist? No, the demons aren’t a direct stand in for any real world group, but the way they are talked about in the show is exactly how hate groups talk about minorities.
The show literally has a scene that shows us what happens when a demon child is raised by people: The demon will just kill them, because it is their nature to destroy people. They look like humans, but only to fool people into letting their guard down. Not because of some magical mumbo jumbo, but because they literally evolved to be destructive monsters whose only goal is to wipe out humanity. Can you not see how this is literally how actual real world groups like nazis talk about their enemies? Can you not see why fascists would love a show that says “some creatures look human, but aren’t really, they just evolved to look human in order to trick people. Our only solution is to exterminate them all, it’s us or them.”
They aren’t aristocrats, they aren’t in charge of this society, they are apart from it and seeking to destroy it from the outside. If they were in charge and actively trying to destroy or control everyone below them, then yeah, they’d be a pretty clear stand in for a parasitic aristocracy, but the show doesn’t treat them like that, it treats them like vermin. It doesn’t treat them as a stand in for real world oppression, they’re just evil because they are born that way.
You look at their fancy clothes and German names (in a setting where everyone dresses like that and has German names) and that’s where your analysis ends? Can you not see how the exact same rhetoric used by the characters in the show about the villains is literally the exact same rhetoric real world hate groups use to justify their violence?
I suppose Ukraine can’t be full of Nazis, because they have a Jewish president, and the US can’t be racist because they elected Obama, right? After all, we should only ever look at surface level stuff, and if they are literally wearing aristocratic clothing, that means they must be aristocrats and represent them and only them and nothing else, and the fascist part of this show’s fanbase just loves the show for no reason, and it totally isn’t a useful tool for them to normalise toxic ideas about real people, even if that wasn’t the original intent.
I think I’ve half-jokingly said something like this in an earlier Frieren thread, but I’ll say it again, and 100% seriously this time:
Some people on here seem to actively want any manga or anime ever made to have fascist undertones, just so they can justify their belief that all Japanese people are born fascist. Like it’s genetic or some shit. And the fact that this is very clearly a form of racism in itself completely escapes them.
This whole thing is extremely USA coded, let me just remind you that there is an entire world outside your borders.
Or my family lived under Japanese occupation and we had people die in the Bataan Death March, so I’m cautious whenever Japanese media has racist undertones. There hasn’t been an honest effort on Japan’s part to even acknowledge what they did while their government is trying to recreate the same genocidal projects. It’s very similar to how Black or Native American people have problems with settler-colonialist themes featured in westerns and post-apocalyptic media. Capitalist media is going to have capitalist brainworms unless it is explicitly anticapitalist. This doesn’t mean you can’t enjoy something. It’s pointing out the problems as they exist.
But sure. I’m the real racist for pointing out racism in your cartoon slop. Fuck off with this crakkker shit.